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Are you ready to challenge gender stereotypes and embrace the benefits of paternity leave? Join Kat and guest host Jenn as we discuss the importance of comprehensive parental leave policies. We'll explore how these policies can help eliminate gender bias in the workplace and even contribute to narrowing the gender pay gap. Plus, we'll take a look at trailblazers like Volvo, who are making positive changes for parents in the automotive sector.
We're also excited to share the insightful experiences of guests Allen and Andrew, two new fathers who have embraced paternity leave. They'll open up about the connections they've formed with their spouses and children and its positive impact on their wife's well-being and postpartum recovery. Let's dive into the cultural attitudes surrounding paternal leave in the US, the stigma that exists when men take paternity leave, and the pressure people feel when offered (or not offered) such leave by their employers.
Together, we can better understand how to create a cultural change by encouraging more men to take paternity leave and asking employers to offer a parental leave policy if not provided. Don't miss out on this enlightening conversation about the impact of gender stereotypes on parents in the workplace and how we can work together to create a more inclusive and supportive environment in the automotive industry and beyond.
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Speaker 1:
Hey, it's Kathleen and Shannon here, and this is Get In Her Lane.
Speaker 2:
We are two automotive professionals diving deep into why women are so underrepresented in this industry and trying to make a positive change.
Speaker 1:
So right along with us as we discuss ideas and takeaways that can help everyone further this effort in the automotive world and beyond. All right, welcome back, get In Her Lane, listeners. I am so excited about today's content and guests. My partner in crime, shannon, is on a little summer hiatus this week, but we are lucky enough to have three special guests replacing her today. Hosting alongside me is a dear friend of mine, jen. So, jen, welcome. Would you like to introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about you?
Speaker 2:
Hey everyone. Thanks, kat. So a little bit about me. I grew up in California and I've been in automotive since 2009. If you would have asked me in 2008 about a career in automotive, i probably would have rolled my eyes at you, but it truly didn't take me long to realize that.
Speaker 1:
I She's still here, yeah, still here by all means.
Speaker 2:
It didn't take me long to realize that I love this industry, as I'm sure the listeners of this pod know. it's wonderfully dynamic and complex and I just love the idea that we in this industry have an infinite amount of chances to make other people's lives easier, better or more enjoyable, all through cars. So love, love, working in this industry.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, thank you, jen. We're so glad to have you. So Jen and I are going to be tackling a big one today, one that I feel strongly personally and professionally about, but we are going to dive into the impact of gender stereotypes on parents in the workplace and parental leave. But before we jump in, we're going to take a moment to talk about why these topics hit home for us.
Speaker 2:
So, jen, Sure, when I think about parental leave, i really start to spiral on the hurdles that women and men overcome to be the best parent, spouse and employee all at the same time. And as a woman without children who wants to continue moving up the corporate ladder, parental leave starts to become personal when you realize that mothers are provided less opportunities, less challenging assignments, less mentorship and sponsorship at work. All of this which contributes to not getting the experience they need to achieve their career goals and subsequently widening the gender pay gap. And because the research shows the exact opposite is true for fathers. So men with children are actually the highest earners, and this is even to out-earn the men without children. So men with children highest earners, far surpassing men who actually don't have children. So, to tie this all back. Comprehensive parental leave for mothers and fathers is really like the start of eliminating gender roles and bias and, hopefully, a way to start leveling the playing field for women and men when it comes to their career goals and their success.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, absolutely. I think parental leave policies that are inclusive of both mothers and fathers play a huge role in not only the health of the parent-child relationship strengthening the parent-child relationship but also, like you said, challenging those traditional gender roles, both in the workplace and at home. And I think, when we are only offering maternity benefits, we're perpetuating that belief that women are the primary caregivers. And I think, additionally, part of that is on the employer to create a culture where parental and paternity leave is not only offered but also encouraged, because we want both mothers and fathers to feel like they're not taking a step back or missing out on opportunities just because they have chosen to have a family as well as a career.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, exactly kind of the points that you're making. there is just kind of recognizing that I'm sure there are plenty of fathers out there who would actually probably wish that their company or whoever they were to have offered that sort of benefit to them and how they wish they could have had more time, especially at the crucial moment of entering fatherhood.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, So, when we take a step back and we look at the United States as a whole, we definitely have some catching up to do when it comes to parental leave overall, especially paternity leave. according to a 2023 report from the University of California, Big plug 63,. I'm from Indiana much less cool. So 63% of countries worldwide provide paid leave for fathers. notably absent on this list is the United States, And it is also one of the only handful of countries globally that does not offer paid maternity leave. We are extremely behind on that front, Yeah.
Speaker 2:
I think it's really shocking, even though this is something that I've heard before and I know and is a statistic in the back of my mind. It's always shocking to hear that we're always so proud to work in this country, have the opportunities in this country, but we're not providing paid maternity leave not even talking about parental leave, but just paid maternity leave is pretty shocking to hear over and over again. I think we, though, we should probably take a page out of the books from other countries and see who've embraced parental leave policies.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, Absolutely behind the times. definitely, Jen. do you want to talk to us a little bit about what the automotive sector looks like in terms of parental leave policies?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, absolutely The automotive sector industry. Most OEMs, the original manufacturers, are offering somewhere between six to 12 weeks of paid leads for moms, with some positive changes extending the duration of that time period. But paternity leave tends to be shorter Overall six to 12 weeks with limited to no paternity leave. There are a couple of trailblazers out there, volvo in particular, which is offering an impressive six months of paternity leave. So that's parental leave. Mothers and fathers are getting six months. Which huge kudos and shout out to them.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, good for them. I think one thing, too, i was thinking about is that's such a powerful investment, not only in the people, but even the future of their company. because I think when an employer is providing such adequate parental leave, i think it sends a powerful message to those that work there that, hey, my boss is my employer, values my work-life balance, my family, and I think ultimately that is going to lead to higher employee morale, loyalty, retention rates, things like that. And actually I read kind of a crazy statistic that when Google extended its paid leave I believe it was parental leave overall for up to 18 weeks attrition dropped by nearly 50%. So I think it just shows the concept that if you feel your employer is investing in you, you want to work for them, you feel strongly.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, that's not surprising to hear that attrition dropped. I'm assuming that a lot of moms probably feel a lot more supportive knowing that they have that crucial time to spend with their newborn, exactly. So I think one thing that I think about too, especially in the industry, is that dealerships have such unique challenges when it comes to providing parental leave policies. So I know that they have regular PTO, even unpaid leave under the Family Medical Leave Act for 12 weeks, or even maybe short-term disability, but it does seem to present a different challenge in terms of the environment that they work in and the headcount that they have for coverage. But there are, of course, some more forward-thinking dealer groups out there that have shown to offer four weeks of paid leave for both moms and dads. It's really awesome to see the progress happening in that area, especially for dealers trying to find ways to figure it out and provide that benefit to their team.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, absolutely, and I think again that's where, as a dealership, we need to get creative on how we can support those new parents, whether it's flexible hours or looking at different scheduling options. But that is great to hear about some of those dealer groups. It just shows that progress is being made, which is awesome. So, on that note, i am excited to introduce two additional guests that will be joining us today, alan and Andrew, who recently joined the World of Fatherhood, and they're going to share some of their thoughts and experiences with us. So welcome Alan and Andrew.
Speaker 3:
Hello, hello, thanks for having us.
Speaker 1:
Glad you guys could be here. So start by telling us a little bit about you guys and, again, your recent journey into fatherhood. Alan, you want to kick us off?
Speaker 3:
Absolutely. Yes, my name is Allen and I've been in the automotive industry now coming up on nine years. Congrats, and I thank you, and I wouldn't have it any other way. I love the automotive industry, kind of like Jen said, and to just build upon that, every single day is completely different. You're working with different people, sharing new experiences and hopefully trying to make that customer experience just a little bit better for not just the customer but for their lives with these automobiles that we're always around. So, in terms of my personal life, yes, i am very proud to say that I am a dad officially one year this Thursday.
Speaker 1:
Congrats, yes, yes, Thank you.
Speaker 2:
I didn't know if that was too specific but yes, I have a one year old. Love the details I'm a Gemini.
Speaker 3:
It has been quite a journey, a wonderful journey. There's a saying that I've heard that I've just started to live where I started to just experience it more is that the? I want to make sure I get this right. The days are long, but the years are short. It's only been one year, and I cannot believe it's been one year. It's been a wonderful, wonderful year. So that's just a little bit about me.
Speaker 1:
I love it, andrew.
Speaker 4:
All right. I started my automotive journey back in 2013 on the retail side. That's where I started working in college and the automotive industry became more than just a job, became a passion, and so they made my way over to the manufacturer side in 2015, and I've been working there ever since. Just like Alan, i also have a one year old. She turns 16 months here in the next few days. I go Alan's comments. just those 16 months have gone too fast. She went from being a sack of potatoes to running around and bumping into every little witch object in a very short amount of time. So I just love seeing every moment and seeing the world that, after 30 plus years through her eyes, is just a completely different experience.
Speaker 1:
Oh my gosh, i'm going to get emotional.
Speaker 2:
It's so sweet to call her a sack of potatoes.
Speaker 1:
Well, we're going to get started with some questions. So how did taking paternity leave positively impact your relationship with both of your wives and your daughters?
Speaker 3:
I will preface this by saying it goes without saying, but I'll still say it. All these opinions are my own. Everyone's journey is different, but all I can speak to is mine, so take that as you may. How did paternity positively affect my experience? I think there is no doubt it positively affected just the relationship that not only, quite obviously, that I was able to start building with my daughter, but, just as importantly, a different type of relationship that I started to have with my wife. We've never had children before, so that changes your relationship, i would say, for the better you get to. In my experience, we got to see a whole different side of each other, learn a whole new level of patience for each other and for our daughter And just overall that time just being away from work and not having to worry about what email is coming up or what outlook invite is digging my phone I was just being present in itself was so extremely valuable and I wouldn't have it any other way. It's something that is absolutely essential and something that I I would say that it's hard for me to believe that this hasn't always been the norm. In other words, I feel for dads in the past where there was no paternity leave right And that's just the way it was, or you need to provide for your family and your job doesn't offer anything. Your baby arrives in this world today and you got to go to work tomorrow. I can't imagine that, And I understand that that's still in the world, but I'm very thankful to have the little time that I did.
Speaker 1:
Absolutely Yeah.
Speaker 4:
Alan, i mean hit it over on the head, just being a part of that team and really getting to learn how to communicate on a different level. you know you're not just talking about you know how your day at work was or anything like that, but truly being able to handle this new life. that is very delicate, that personally, i was very terrified of doing something wrong or hurting her or doing something like that, but just going through that together and you know, for my wife and I we're out in our state here by ourselves, so we really didn't have anything to fall back on other than ourselves. So we really had to learn, you know, through it all and just kind of throw it against the wall and see what stuck. You know we came through it and those two weeks where it was every hour of the day together and figuring it out was super important.
Speaker 1:
I think the together piece for both of you is awesome. I'm sure both of your partners really appreciated that. I think that to me is huge that you both were able to, and like got to support each other in that way.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, i think the thing that sticks out the most to what both of you said is just the way that you guys were connecting with your spouses on a level that maybe you hadn't thought of or even knew existed before. So kind of thinking and keeping that in mind, in what specific ways did you feel like you being around during that time period may have positively impacted your wife's well-being and maybe her postpartum recovery?
Speaker 4:
I think the best thing for my wife's well-being was kind of getting to recognize her signs. She could be a suburb at times with saying when she needed a break, but spending that time with her, I knew when she needed a break and she wasn't going to ask for one. She's just that type of person. She's that type of mom.
Speaker 1:
So you got to see it.
Speaker 4:
Right, exactly. So, knowing that sign, knowing that look, and being like all right, it's time, megan's my wife, everyone listening. Go take a break. Shout out Megan, yeah, give me her for however long you need. Go to a different part of the house, go run the target, go do whatever you need to do. We'll be here when you get back, ready to come back and you're done with your break.
Speaker 1:
Did you guys have any additional support? Would you guys say like from family friends? Did you feel like you needed it during those first few weeks?
Speaker 4:
Honestly, it was quite the opposite, in the sense that I think everyone did a great job of giving us our space and letting us figure out ourselves. While also being there, you know right away if they needed anything, whether it was FaceTime, phone call, text messages everyone was ready to answer, but was very respectful of giving us our space and figuring it out ourselves.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, i would say for me, my perspective is I will never understand the physical, mental and emotional toll of having a child, right, but the best of my ability to understand and to answer your question, jen, like specifically what I did was anything I could so that my wife could heal and my wife could focus on bonding and breastfeeding and everything along with that experience. So, specifically, washing all the bottles, washing breast pump parts, doing the feedings that were the supplemental formulas, like you know, when I obviously, you know, in between the breastfeeding laundry, like just trying to do everything else, just so that she could focus on on healing and getting back to normal. And you know there are a lot of changes, from what I understand the hormones in the body and like allowing all of that to heal take some time. So just trying to be present in that way was the main thing that paternity leave allowed me to do.
Speaker 4:
Yeah, i took that. I took that two to three am feeding, so Megan could at least get that. You know six to eight hours from you know midnight 11 pm to you know six am once you need that morning feeding. So try to do my part at least and you'll fight that bullet.
Speaker 3:
The one am is kind of like just stand up late watchinga movie, it's that three am. That's just like what's going on? your ears are ringing and you're like, okay, i just got to do this. Got to get this done.
Speaker 1:
So obviously the both of you took you know a very active role and were blessed to be able to do that. How do you guys feel like the paternity leave period challenged or reinforced stereotypes about men's involvement in caregiving, both within your families and society at large?
Speaker 4:
Yeah, i think the biggest one that I kind of had to battle with was just that voice that's in the back of your head, that's kind of been instilled by society, which is the you know.
Speaker 2:
Hey, get back to work you know you need to provide for your family, You need to make sure you're making money.
Speaker 4:
I mean, yes, it was a paid paternity leave that we had, So I was still making money, but that's still that voice in the back of your head, you know once that time's up. you need to keep right back into it, which is not what our family needed. So it was kind of doing both once you did get back, but that was definitely the voice, and as soon as that time was up, was like trying to still be that present dad, while also you know good at my job and getting back into the swing of things after taking the two weeks off, because auto industry does not stop for two weeks.
Speaker 1:
I actually read a stat you know I'm prepping for this episode that 63% of men are hesitant to take paternal leave and believe that extended parental leave would be detrimental to their careers, which is such a bummer, and I think that is changing. You know, those societal expectations are changing but kind of that nagging feeling of what you were saying I think is part of the US culture and kind of just the way things are. But it is. It is so great to hear that things are changing.
Speaker 3:
I'd be lying if I didn't say I didn't think about what if there is some sort of movement in the office that I work while I'm gone and I'm not here to advocate for myself. I most certainly thought about that, even if it was for a brief second. Obviously that wasn't the priority in my life, but I definitely thought about it. And culturally too. You know I work for OEM that interacts with dealerships, so I go to dealerships as well And it was just interesting. Interesting to see just generational and cultural you know lenses that they view paternity leave and pregnancy in. You know, from sharing my experiences at some dealerships where they're like man, that's really awesome. I wish I can get that we're working towards that at this dealership to some other dealers where they're like man. You taken a vacation. I went back to work the day after my kid was born. So I will find myself being, at a certain point, a little embarrassed, sharing how much time I had off. Even though I did not think it was the proper amount of time that I wanted to spend with my family. I still felt kind of bad sharing that with you know some salespeople that may not have had that opportunity or that I don't even want to want to call it a luxury.
Speaker 1:
It's not a luxury, but that opportunity it should not be a luxury, but yeah, it is Right.
Speaker 3:
So that was interesting for me to observe, that whole like almost getting some some people being encouraging and others almost like shaming me for like, oh wow, you, just what are you planning on doing? watching TV the whole time. And it's like, well, no, that's, that's the exact opposite Yeah.
Speaker 2:
And that's kind of to me. Why I feel so strongly about parental leave is because there's still this kind of pervasive sort of attitude about it, especially when men do get to take the time off right. The comments that were made to you, alan. I feel like if it was made available to everyone right, including men, we have much less of that pressure about. While you took a vacation or you know, hopefully, that little voice scratching in the back of your head, andrew, that was like I have to go back to work, right. I feel like that would hopefully probably tamper down some of those thoughts and feelings that people have and make it, you know, a lot better for everyone across the board, not just women.
Speaker 1:
And again for companies to not only offer it but encourage it. I think is huge because if you're offered paternity leave, alan, and then you take it and you feel like you are, you know again, miss, you're taking a step back at work or missing opportunity, or you feel like you you weren't total, you weren't giving the blessing to take it, I think it's it takes away from the you know, being present piece of it.
Speaker 3:
Right right.
Speaker 2:
So I know, alan, you had mentioned that you know obviously you receive some judgment or comments from some of the people you interacted with in a workplace setting. But did you maybe and Andrew obviously chiming as well did you encounter any resistance or judgment from you know, maybe family members or friends, regarding your decision to take that leave?
Speaker 3:
I personally didn't get a lot of that, which I'm thankful for. I think a lot of my friends you know I have friends and family that were for other large companies Fortune 500, smaller companies and if anything, the amount of leave that's available to them, they actually would take less, but the lesser amount that they would take is significantly longer than what's available to me, if that makes sense. So there was no judgment in that sense.
Speaker 1:
Like they were explained Shock mostly.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, they were just shocked mostly on how low that amount was.
Speaker 2:
So you're saying they were like offered three months but they'd probably take one or six weeks.
Speaker 3:
I'm saying they were offered like six months and they only took three. Yeah, in that sense which I think you know. Once again, like I said at the beginning, it's different for everyone. You know some of these companies I heard of you know, and it's different industries, right. But I've heard of you know up to eight months in certain companies. And you know, based on your life circumstances, maybe you need all eight, maybe you need more than eight, maybe you need less than eight, but it was certainly longer than I had available to me.
Speaker 4:
Yeah, the only I would say question I wouldn't even say it was challenge or judgment, but was the oh, you're going to take it off at the same time as your wife. And you know, I know some friends of mine, some family members, stagger when they take their time off. So that mom, you know, mom takes the first paternity leave and then she goes back to work and then dad takes paternity leave and says, oh, baby, well, mom works, or vice versa. So that was that question, but I don't think that's a judgment question.
Speaker 3:
That's just, you know yeah, yeah, andrew brings up a great point. I heard about that a lot and that's something I did not even consider until after hearing it from family members. And I've even heard of the ability to take your time as like part time, so working half of the day. You extend it out, you basically double your time off, except you're just working half days. So two options that I didn't even know were, you know, feasible or available.
Speaker 2:
So kind of touching on that flexibility because that's curious, i've never heard that before either. if the option was there, right, and just thinking about your obviously your own situations, is that something that you would consider? you know we had touched on the kind of challenging environment that dealerships have to operate and right and providing the flexibility for that kind of leave. But that was if it made available right in the smaller setting where it's a part time work but you can take off a month and work part time through two months, right. Is that something that would appeal to either of you?
Speaker 3:
For me, not for the first child. For the first child I am glad it was at the same exact time. My wife's was longer, as it should have been, but just the beginning, the same time, was fantastic. It is definitely something I would consider if we have more children, so that is something that we would think about and have to talk about what that plan would look like now that we have a little bit of experience to work off of.
Speaker 1:
Yeah.
Speaker 4:
Yeah, alan's reaction was the exact same that I had Not, definitely not in the first one, the first one. I think it's definitely detrimental to both being it at the first two weeks or whatever it ends up being all that whole time together. Then it comes down to you know, you and your partner. Whatever you decide, it just has to be that open dialogue between the two of you and see what works best. You know, i would probably still repeat and just do it at the same time If our current benefits stay the same, you know, if our time gets extended between child one and child two, then we can always go back and have that discussion personally, but I can definitely see where someone at least whether it's two weeks and then half days up until the remainder of the time is definitely appealing.
Speaker 1:
So kind of circling back, but were there any specific moments or memories during your paternity leave that reinforced the belief in your involvement in the caregiving process in those first few weeks of your child's life? Was there any significant moments that either of you had?
Speaker 4:
Yeah, i mean I can chime in. You know we had I forget the exact time It was either the first few days, first week, but Megan had a little bit of a health scare and She had to go into the hospital just to get checked out, make sure everything was okay. She was, you know, will preference this conversation with that, but we didn't want to bring a one Week old baby into an emergency room. You know plenty of diseases is still, you know, during that COVID time period where you know We were three months removed from like that second winter peak. So there is those anxieties behind that. And you know, luckily, you know, having that full week at that point with Megan And with our baby Nora, at the time I felt comfortable staying at home and what I have felt, that way if I didn't have that week of Parental leave right beforehand to get to know the baby, get to know her cues, get to spend time with her and build that Relationship, you know. So I felt completely comfortable offering up like, hey, we'll get, we'll go, we'll drop you off and then we'll come pick you back up, we'll stay at home while you, you know, go to the doctors. As much as I wanted to be there with her, it was more important to keep the baby safe at home. So that was, you know, something I was grateful for Reflecting on that and having that opportunity to be able to deal with that while not having to you know, miss work either.
Speaker 3:
Yeah yeah, for for me and my wife I wouldn't say there was one specific moment, but I think gradually, just the realization every single day that you're responsible for another human being Just got heavier and heavier Each day, and we were kind of like a sounding board for each other. Yeah on how you know we can do this. This is special, right, your special. So I think, just gradually over that time period, being able to build that relationship made me value that time away. I mean, if I had to like pinpoint a specific moment, it probably be the first involuntary smile Where it's like you know you can't scratch the little reflex smile. But I'm glad I was there to Experience that rather than like getting your photo or a video sent to me.
Speaker 2:
Of that.
Speaker 3:
So that, yeah, that was that's made me realize how amazing it was just to be there and present for a moment like that.
Speaker 2:
Super sweet Yeah that's amazing.
Speaker 1:
When you guys think towards the future, it remind me you both had how long, for how much time off to two formal weeks but Four weeks off and then two weeks in an exclusive work from home Set up.
Speaker 3:
So that's going back to like the plan that I approach my manager with. That's what we agreed upon two of the formal weeks Two weeks I actually use vacations just so I can be completely hands-off, and then two weeks Exclusively from home and you, you would recommend and see value in that opportunity to be a hundred percent present there for, obviously, the two weeks and longer, you would say. Yes, a hundred and twenty percent, almost inarguably, if, given the option, i couldn't recommend more being at home, being a present, putting away The devices. In terms of work, at least take plenty of pictures. You're gonna upgrade your iPhone storage and I Yeah, yeah, it's it, come. It use up space very quickly, but putting away the work device, turning off those notifications and just being present in the moment, i think. Looking back, i am very thankful for that. Having heard it, i don't know any different, but I've heard the experiences of those that have had to go to work. You know the day after, and even in today's world where there are Jobs right, that you don't get time off and you go back to work after you use up all your vacation, or you use your use up your FM LA, or you use up the time that you get. You chose to take Unpaid because you value it, but you still need to pay the mortgage. Like I Genuinely value that time and if, given the opportunity, i think everyone should take that.
Speaker 4:
Absolutely yeah, no, even if you go to the Volvo example of six months I can see needing every one of those days up until six months and Truly beyond. But we do have to eventually get back to work, and regardless of the company, but no, every every second I would take that I can because, yeah, once, regardless of when you're working or even if you're going back and just living daily life there. Life gets busy and you know you will miss something. But every second you guess to spend with your child and not miss anything, it's invaluable.
Speaker 1:
That's amazing and I it's great to hear that progress is happening And I hope for both of you, as your families continue, and for everyone moving forward that you know We continue to have progress in this realm.
Speaker 2:
It's great to you know, hear both of your mindsets about the time you took and how valuable it was for you, and Wishing for even more time off, and kind of keeping that in mind, what do you think can be done on a broader scale to maybe encourage more men to take paternity leave and Challenge some of the gender roles in terms of who's the primary caretaker of children?
Speaker 4:
I think it's important just to remember that the work will always be there, your job will be there or a job will be there. At the end of the day, your family is irreplaceable. You know you don't want to miss out on you know any time or or building that family. If you have that time allotted to you, whether it's a benefit or if the benefit's not there but your boss is willing to be flexible, just take it. You can make up the time, make up the work, but you can't make up the time missed with your family and the more of you that feel that way.
Speaker 1:
I think that scratching in the back of your head will go away and it will become more normal.
Speaker 4:
The tough thing, too, is people. You don't know about childhood until you have a kid. Like you can, you can tell people as much as you want, But you know it's not really a conversation that people without kids are having people with kids, other than just hearing all the stories and Showing all the pictures that everyone definitely eats up, but explain just like the why and the feelings behind it don't happen as much. So if we can have more of those conversations I think it will go a long way.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, i agree with Andrew. I think cultural change needs to happen and that's not easy to do for it to become a norm. However, i feel like for my generation, from what I've observed, i've seen a little bit more openness in talking about fatherhood, being a parent, your kids. You know that it's not necessarily true, but you always hear about kids being a burden and that joke, but I feel like I hear that less and less and I try not to joke about that. So it's one of those things I think over time it comes about. And you know I'll preface my next statement by saying I love my job. But ultimately you have to consider are you living to work or are you working to live? And I am definitely working to live.
Speaker 1:
I love my job.
Speaker 3:
But I work to support my family and to love my family and be present there, and those are moments that you can never get back. So the sooner that you can understand that or hear that from someone else, the sooner that you can try to live that out in your own life. Like I said I am competitive, ambitious, i love my job. I want to go far, but not at the risk of losing out time with my family.
Speaker 1:
Well, and I think it makes you a stronger worker when you are supported in both ways.
Speaker 3:
Absolutely. Yep, completely agree.
Speaker 4:
And I think that Alan and I are showing in our different fields that you can do both. You can be a great dad and be a great worker. You can be great at your job and great at being a dad. It doesn't have to sacrifice one or the other.
Speaker 1:
It's not either, or You can be great at both. Yep Absolutely Well you guys. Thank you for your wonderful insights and sharing your personal experiences with us. It was great chatting with you both.
Speaker 4:
Thanks for having us. Wonderful to hear from both of you. Thanks for inviting us on.
Speaker 1:
All right, Jen. What do we think?
Speaker 2:
That was honestly refreshing to kind of hear from them. I was thinking we so often hear from mothers on this topic because we're so short on what we offer to moms in terms of maternity leave and parental leave, but it was really refreshing to kind of hear their take on how important it was to them to have their parental and paternity leave.
Speaker 1:
I think one of our biggest takeaways is the only way you know things are going to change is if more men take paternity leave and are proud, like Alan and Andrew, and we celebrate it And you know they tell their friends to take paternity leave And then that fear kind of goes away as it becomes more normal. That's how things are going to change.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, that's what I was thinking the whole time is tell your friends to take paternity leave if it's offered to them, you know. Ask your employer for it if you don't have it, and then for the ones that do. I, of all people, love a good joke and a troll, but resist the urge to make fun of your friends when they take paternity leave, even if it's going to be really funny. That's what I think about no trolling, only celebrating Exactly. Save it for later. Yeah, save it for when the majority of men are taking their paternity or parental leave.
Speaker 1:
Then it's OK to troll, just slide in a few jokes.
Speaker 2:
I'll even help you write them.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, i think one thing you mentioned to that sticks out to me is pushing on your employer. Obviously, again, the power in numbers. I think the more men that push for it, that take it, it will become the norm And that's how some of these gender biases, gender stereotypes, parental stereotypes, things like that, are going to change And that's the way forward, absolutely.
Speaker 2:
I think another thing that I loved hearing from both of them too is just the way that they connected with and really felt like they were supporting and being there for their spouse, their wives, And I think that's just so special, especially during that moment, because to be in that environment of course I haven't been through it, but I just can't even imagine what it's like So to know that you have someone who is looking out for your cues or you guys are forming a new memory or a new connection between each other is honestly like everyone's spouse could love and appreciate that.
Speaker 1:
The way they approached it, with such a partnership approach to those first few weeks of parenthood, and it's such a unfortunately, a blessing that they both had. And it sounds like you know they both would want more time and the ability to be more present, But I'm happy that the two of them were able to have that with both of their daughters.
Speaker 2:
So cute Girl dads.
Speaker 1:
Girl dads. Well, you guys. with that, it has been a great episode with three special guests, As you guys know, Jen, we're glad to have you Thank you. As you guys know, you can find us on Apple Spotify, anywhere you get your podcast. Be sure to check us out at getinherlanecom and tune in next time for more great content.
