Conquering Imposter Syndrome So You Can Be Your Bad@ss Self!

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Hey, it's Kathleen and Shannon here, and this is Get In Her Lane.

Jamie: 0:05

We are two automotive professionals diving deep into why women are so underrepresented in this industry and trying to make a positive change.

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So ride along with us as we discuss ideas and takeaways that can help everyone further this effort in the automotive world and beyond.

Jamie: 0:20

Hey there, automotive enthusiasts, welcome to another exciting episode of Get In Her Lane, the podcast where we endeavor to push automotive industry culture forward and take the driver's seat to see things from her perspective. I'm your host, jamie, and I'm excited to kick off 2024 with a great episode. First off, thank you all for your incredible support for this passion project born out of our pure desire to keep the industry evolving. If you're enjoying the show, please make sure to follow the podcast on Apple, spotify or wherever you get your pods. Follow us on Instagram at Get In Her Lane, and please tell your friends and coworkers about us. We love building this community with you. Now let's talk about something that hits close to home for many of us Imposter syndrome. You know that nagging feeling that maybe you don't actually know what you're doing after all, and that maybe you're not good enough, despite all evidence to the contrary, and that maybe people are going to find out that you've been faking it. It's actually more common than you realize, so take some comfort in that. I know I do. Another thing imposter syndrome doesn't discriminate. It affects us all, regardless of gender. However, in male dominated industries like automotive, it can hit a little differently. Today we're diving deep into the subject and exploring how to kick imposter syndrome to the curb. So why should you stick around? Well, imagine getting some great tips and tools to navigate the twists and turns of a male dominated industry with confidence. Picture yourself stepping into the boardroom, the shop or the showroom floor and owning your expertise. Without a shred of doubt, we've got a fantastic guest for you today. Joining us is the incredible Micha Goebig. She's a seasoned leadership coach who specializes in coaching women professionals in male dominated industries. Micha brings a wealth of knowledge and experience to the table, and I can't wait for you to benefit from her insights. So here you go, Micha. Welcome. It's so great to have you. We are excited to be talking with you today because you are a leadership coach focused on empowering women in male dominated industries, and we would love to hear about how you got inspired to get into that and maybe your personal journey that led you there.

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Yeah, thanks for having me. So the work I do I primarily do because I honestly believe that the world would be a better place for all if women were in 51% of all possessions of power. That's really what I believe. As for my journey and how I got into this particular field primarily working with women in automotive, but also in other male dominated areas I'm originally from Germany, from an area where the car industry is very big, supplier industry is very big, and I went to college and university in Munich, so there are a lot of OEMs very close to and that was the cool thing to do work for the German premium manufacturers. I went to the US first and then came back and realized that corporate doesn't really work for me. Now I call it ADHD, adult ADHD. Back then nobody knew how that shows up in women. I got my first really bad bout of a posture sooner, when I dropped out of my PhD program, so that was the first time I dropped out of something. So that was a really frustrating time period. Corporate doesn't work for me. The academics obviously not either. I started carving out a niche for myself, because I'm fully bilingual, to do communications for the car industry because that was my degree and went from mostly little spots, little articles, to speeches, up to CEO speeches for the big German premium manufacturers. Basically build an agency on the model you need English communication in a field that translators can serve well. And then that all worked fine. Then I got bored. I got into also working with executives on doing their English analyst calls, these things. And then I got bored and I was like, okay, I'm already working one-on-one with quite a lot of people and I'm already teaching workshops, which is fun. Why not do a coaching training? So I did that and right after that I moved to the US. That was a big change of course in every respect, because this time I was coming to stay. It hit me again with a big imposter syndrome what do I have to offer to people, especially as a coach? And then the other one realizing that the women in tech here in Seattle, where I am now experienced the same issues I have heard and experienced in the car industry in Germany since the 90s. And that really got me mad. And that's where I started to work on my own. My syndrome negative self-talk, perfectionism got into teaching those workshops and again into coaching and said, okay, I really want to focus on women in automotive and tech other male dominated areas manufacturing because they just have this all the same struggle and it's so hard and they need support.

Jamie: 5:23

Yeah, and I can't wait to dive into imposter syndrome with you more today. But first, what was not working for you in the corporate world, what was not jiving where you're like? This isn't for me. I need to get out.

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I think for me personally, the ADHD really made it necessary for me to create my own work environment. Today it is still very hard, and I see that with women it doesn't have to be a neurodivergent issue, it can be anything Ask for accommodation. That wasn't even a thing back then, but even nowadays it's hard to ask for accommodation, right, that's what I see with a lot of mothers, for instance, even in countries, in European countries, where the regulations are a little more favorable. Even then it is hard to say, hey, this is still not working for me. Can we carve out something that really serves me? That is something I experience very quickly and I'm a change-embracer. So for me it was easy to say, okay, do something else. Most people have a much harder time with change because that really requires a really blessed upbringing of personal psychological safety, and that is a rare thing. I'm very grateful for. That allowed me to just do that big step a lot earlier and without regrets.

Jamie: 6:45

Well, yeah, that's a lot of change. Moving to the US and then leaving the corporate life and then going off and doing your own thing that's a lot of change all at once. So, when we're talking about confidence challenges that women face, can you share with us what you think some of the most common ones are and how do you help women and what you do address them?

: 7:07

I think the big umbrella is really I don't feel seen, I don't feel heard, I don't feel respected, I don't feel taken seriously and valued. I think that is really the most common topic that I hear and that of course, leads to major confidence issues, because either I get to the point where I feel like I don't have anything valuable to offer or whatever I have to contribute, they don't care, it doesn't have value to them. We see that in different ways. For instance, a very common one is that women in many, many companies, especially big companies, have to deliver proof. When a lot of young male colleagues are promoted on promise that is proof of a promise is a huge issue being talked over in meetings. Being asked to take notes Even recently happened to a client of mine who was a senior director was asked to take notes in a relatively conservative environment. She is a senior director Even as women. We just have the gender bias imprinted as well. There is just a lot that makes it harder for women no accommodation for female issues. I mentioned childcare. I also very simple example at some companies you are required on the shop floor to wear a certain safety uniform, not allowed to have personal stuff on you, and the bathrooms. The women bathrooms don't have timepods. Sounds like not a big deal, right? But if you are the one who has to go all across the production hall to your locker, go to the bathroom, go to your locker again, come back. Your break is five or 10 minutes shorter. It's just inconsiderate those things. There are so many that just add up. And the first point I address with clients is always okay, this is a structural issue. Basically, it's not you, it's the patriarchy, and that's not mad bashing, because that system that we have doesn't serve a lot of people best. What we need is really a combination of making those social changes and that will take a lot of time and building the confidence and resilience, because I definitely do not want all women to drop out of corporate and become yoga teachers.

Jamie: 9:40

Yeah, but that would be terrible. That's not what we're doing. Yeah, yeah, someone's got to change the industry from within.

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So that's the first. It's not your fault. First getting out of resentment too, the guilt, the resentment that has to go first, because then next one is actually allowing yourself to want what you want. Maybe it is going to the C-suite all the way up, having that big ambition, but it could as well be that you don't allow yourself to say, hey, I want to be a mother first and really just be where I am and keep that. I don't want to be pushed into promotions. Either way, allowing yourself to want what you want. And then we work through all those good girl habits. We have to unlearn so much of those. And for women who are big on learning and studying most of us that's how we were raised unlearning is really a process in itself, but that's where I feel the confidence building starts.

Jamie: 10:37

Okay, yeah, tell us more about the unlearning. What is common or typical for you to work with your clients on in terms of unlearning? Tell us more about that.

: 10:48

Common likeability. Most of us are very trained that we need to be liked. You're a nice girl, nice, nice it's always about nice. What we need to learn is kind one will go for, because kind includes boundaries. Kind doesn't necessarily mean that I always do everything for everybody. I serve them better sometimes by saying, uh-uh, try it, come back if you need help, tell me what you've done, then we talk about it. That is kind. That's not necessarily nice. So the likeability being okay, not everybody can like you and I always feel like if some people are never happy with what you do because you're either too loud, too direct, or if you change your behavior you're a pushover Right, it's like you can't win. If that's the case, might as well be authentic and do what works for you.

Jamie: 11:46

Sure. So you find that perfect spot and should someone have to find that perfect spot to act in, live in, take action in?

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I'm glad you say perfect, because that's the next I'm learning Right. Sure Well, I was using it for your example.

Jamie: 12:01

I know it seems like you can't be too firm and direct, but you can't be a pushover and too nice and soft, and it's like what's that spot where people are going to perceive you as the best of everything? So you're not sitting there second guessing yourself.

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Not everybody will and I think that's one of the big things. It's okay that not everybody will. Of course you know if you have been with a company for a bit and you know what the actual steps are for you to reach your professional goals in this company or someplace else. Those things, yeah, you have to hit those marks and probably exceed them a little. But as far as the personality things go, men don't get that kind of feedback. There are studies over studies about evaluation, performance evaluations, everything. Men get much more professionally oriented feedback. Women get oh, she's not ready, she's too direct, too bossy, or she is not ready for a promotion to shy, and at that point you really have to get into that. Whatever and myself, some people will like it, others won't deal with it, and that takes work, that takes a lot of time.

Jamie: 13:20

Mm-hmm. Okay, yeah, so you're saying a lot of the feedback or criticism surrounding women in corporate has a lot to do with more of their behaviors or the way they're acting or perceived versus the actual work product in accomplishments.

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Yeah, there are quite a few studies that show that, both for promotions, performance evaluations, mentoring a lot of corporate executives mentor women on confidence, which is not their specialty. They are supposed to mentor women on the same things they mentor men on. What are your steps to reaching your goal? Who do you need to, or do you need to, meet in this company? Let me introduce you to someone that's like how does this company work from the perspective of someone who's been here 20 years? Those are the things women need to learn as much as men. Confidence is wiped off with a coach or with a peer group.

Jamie: 14:18

That's a really interesting point. I never thought about it that way, so I'm glad that you brought that up. So let's jump into imposter syndrome a little bit. I think it affects more people than you realize. I think a lot of people who feel it. They don't share that they feel that way, so it definitely is more widespread. Tell us about imposter syndrome from your point of view. When you're working with your clients, how do you help them overcome it? What are the common things with imposter syndrome? Tell us everything we need to know.

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First off, both for the listeners here, and that's also what I discuss with clients is the only truth imposter syndrome tells you is that you are out of your comfort zone. That's the only fact in this whole thing that might be going on in your head. That's the only fact. The only truth is you are out of your comfort zone. That's the first shift. And it's hard to believe, right, because our brains I mean obviously they are with us every second of the day. So we, our inner voice, our inner critic, knows exactly which buttons to push and they sound like the truth. It is really meant to protect us because we're out of our comfort zone and our reptilian brain says like back there, back there, ha ha, ha, you back up. I have kept your life in your comfort zone, this is where we're staying, staying alive. That part of our brain doesn't help with thriving, growing. So that is the first thing again, just to know, to just have the ability to take a step away from those messages. That's the first thing. I think Brené Brown says oh, this is my inner critic acting up to make that room between you and that message. That is very personal, which sentence you might want to choose, but that's the first step just being able to step away. If you take, even if you have a hard time believing what I just said, if you just take it as the hypothesis for the moment, then figure out are you just uncomfortable and that's why your brain is just like acting up, or are you unsafe? Are you in a toxic work environment? That you can only make that distinction when you are able to take a step back from these thoughts and believe before a moment that it's really just your brain trying to keep you safe. So then you can make that distinction. It's still hard, so you might still want a trusted person to talk this through with and, quite honestly, if you don't have a single person in your work environment, you can ask that question is this me or is this an unsafe, a toxic, psychologically unsafe work environment? Then that already points towards one answer If you don't have a single person, you can discuss that with. That, I think, is the second point making that distinction and then really working on acknowledging how your brain thinks it's keeping you safe and working on that more consistent confidence, because imposter syndrome shows up when we are in new situations. That didn't happen, like a generation, two, three ago, when people were on their farms and had basically the same thing happening most days. Then our brain is like fine, we can also handle a disaster because still, it's still in the same framework. But that's the difference. We don't have that anymore.

Jamie: 17:45

Well, it's funny. I have a male friend so not female, but a male friend who is an expert in their field, has been doing it for 20 years and this person still feels imposter syndrome with maybe they have a big client presentation or they have a big meeting with some senior executives and it's funny because this person will be like well, are they going to find out that I'm a fraud and I really don't know what I'm doing. But I'm like you've been doing it for the last 20 years and you're an expert in it. That doesn't make any sense. It really can kind of take over your thought process. It can.

: 18:22

It absolutely can, and it's actually good that you give an example with a man, because it's not a female problem only. It's more discussed among women and it's more common because women, especially in those male-dominated industries, are per definition more often outside of their comfort zone. So that's where a term like majority culture comes in. So usually the majority culture, especially in the automotive industry, in tech and manufacturing, is for most of us, straight white guys. If you are or have a different sexual orientation, if you have a visible or invisible disability, if you don't meet other majority standards, and of course, that same thing holds very true for people of color in those predominantly white industries. So all of that comes together and then if you say, okay, but my friend is none of that, my friend is the typical majority culture guy in this environment. They're still, of course, the very personal. How did he grow up? Did someone tell him it is best to keep your head down? That's a message many people get, depending on what their parents, their grandparents, experienced. At that point it really it can be anything. It's not safe to stand out. That's something your reptilian brain is like yeah, yeah, back back.

Jamie: 19:46

It's trying to keep you safe. What other advice would you give for overcoming imposter syndrome?

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What I really like to do with people as the two exercises I really like to do. One basically targets the. Now we all say superpowers, but what I actually mean is what are you really good at? You don't even value it that much because it comes so easily and we're all trained to go for the hard work stuff. I'm a hard worker, yeah, what's easy for you. So I start there and it can be anything. It can be oh, I can easily explain super complicated technical stuff to non-engineers. Or it can be I have a good sense for getting the right people together. Or I'm super organized. I never drop a ball in project management, whatever it is. Maybe you're a fast learner, a good network or whatever it is, but that is something where we start, and just because it comes easily to you doesn't mean it doesn't hold value for others. That's the first one. There will be certain things that you are not good at because you're so good at this other thing and that so dark side of your strength it's not a weakness, it's not like for me. I am very, very good at ideation, creative things, coming up with new ways to do things. All the creative stuff comes easily to me and I enjoy it very much. I love brainstorming. I could brainstorm and ideate until the cows come home, but the cows wouldn't come home because I forget them on the pasture. I am not a person for follow through. I mean, of course I execute things, but my strong suit is really the first stage, the planning, the excitement, the motivating people. I need others who don't want to be, or they're not so drawn to that ideation planning process, but they are strong in execution. So I used to beat myself up for just like not being great at follow through. I lose interest and then it becomes really hard for me. But it's not a weakness, it's just the other side of that highly creative coin and when you learn those things for yourself, it makes you kinder towards yourself.

Jamie: 22:06

Yeah, I love that. I never really thought about it that way.

: 22:09

It doesn't mean that you don't have to learn it at all, but it makes you kinder. So that's one of my favorite things to do. And the other one is finding a confidence anchor story like really a memory. That is your badass moment, that is the story where you can channel, where you were on top of your world and when I say your world, it means it can be a very small world. This can be a childhood memory. Actually, for myself and many people I've done this exercise with, it is a childhood memory. Or you say, oh well, you have that bonus, I could do anything, even if you are in this small world. And it doesn't have to be a professional memory. It just needs to allow you to tap into that sense, that sense of like wow, look at me. And very often that's an old memory, but we all have that. It can be recent too. I did this exercise with someone who said, like you know what? I climbed a mountain last year and I'm not sporty, and then we stood there. It can be those memories too, but it doesn't have to be a success in the traditional sense. It really is about when can you feel that? Which story, which memory gives you that feeling, and then you can take steps to learn to really tap into that, and those two exercises make confidence a more consistent thing. You will still have ups and downs. You will still have moments where you're like, oh no, god, no way I can do that. But you have more, you have more equilibrium with it, you have a stronger base.

Jamie: 23:42

That's great advice. I'm definitely going to have to remember to use that, especially when I'm seeking a confident moment to earn my myself Love it. So, going back to the humble brag, tell us where's the line exactly I think that can be confusing of how far to go. I mean, you want to make sure that you are promoting yourself in a positive fashion, but you also don't want to take it too far.

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I get this question asked pretty much every single time. I do a workshop, I give a talk, every time and the first thing I say every time saying it now too is like just by you asking that question, I know that you're not going to fall. I know that you're not projecting overconfidence, errogance, I just know that because you're worried about it. We all know people in the public spotlight who are so extreme. Do they seem like they worry about any lines? The people who are those negative role models, whoever they are for you, those people do not worry about that and personally I find like it's not a line, it's like an eight lane highway. You're not crossing that by mistake with one sentence. If you feel like now I really said too much in the whole overall context, you're still. You aren't even across the middle lane. So that is something it takes a long time to not worry about. It again because of societal messaging parents. Often there's be humble as a cultural thing also for many, many people, and I really don't like the word too much anymore because you can be kind and you can help others without really not doing the thing for you. I mean you're not taking anything away from anybody by saying, hey, I did something cool here, or hey, I want this promotion. You're not taking anything away from anybody else. I never have to tell women to advocate for others, because that's so much easier for us. You have to advocate for yourself to, of course. An easy starting point is to have like a bright partner and she promotes you, you promote her. That is a starting point, but I want you to learn to do it for yourself. There is absolutely nothing wrong with saying I did a really cool thing. Let me tell you about it and just all new accomplishments. I actually make. A lot of my clients do a compliment jar. I have one, but we're audio, but I can show you Nice, that's what I have very close to my desk and it says well done, mika. And it's a big jar and I write myself little notes and they either start with yay me, or I am proud that I did this. Or it's not always like again, it's not always a success in the judicial system and in some days it is. I'm proud of myself for taking a mental health day. That doesn't come easy to me, taking time off during the week, that thing. Or I'm proud for walking the dark three times, despite the rain Some days. That's an accomplishment.

Jamie: 26:56

Yes, some days it is Okay. I like that tactic a lot. I'll have to try it. Right now, my tactic has been watching suits. I don't know if you've ever watched that legal show. Okay, so I watched. I love Harvey Specter and he is not humble at all with his bragging, so I'm trying to hopefully have some of his. The way he goes about things infuses into me, so that's what I watch, not only for entertainment, but for confidence, confidence, learning. Yeah.

: 27:21

Absolutely love that, because you have to start somewhere and you start, of course, always in the space that feels safest to you. If that is for those things, it might be maybe your girlfriends more than maybe your family, because they may be in a similar position at work or something and then you go to your colleagues that you work with well, trust a lot, and then the next person right, so you don't start saying, look at me, I'm so great, which is not the phrase that you would use anyway, but you don't start that like the first time you report to the board. So you start where it's easy. And again, that's something women are like no, I'm supposed to work hard, yeah, yeah, but these things make it as easy for yourself as possible, because that brain, that reptilian brain that wants you to step back, can be cheated. That way, if you shuffle outside of your comfort zone, you don't always have to take those. Usually, if you extend your comfort zone slowly, that reptilian brain doesn't catch on that much, and that way you can really make that progress.

Jamie: 28:31

Absolutely Well. To wrap things up, mika, I wanted to just leave on a couple of takeaways for our listeners. What piece of advice, one or two pieces of advice do you think are very important for women, especially because you work with women primarily, so that's why I'm saying women specifically. What would you offer them?

: 28:50

Apart from doing the work I've already described, there is one thing, and it might sound counter-intuitive when you say what's the one thing? Be more selfish. That's my big piece of advice, because women have no problem helping others. That's what we just discussed anyway. And I'm working with the term the good selfish because I believe that by women learning to embrace the good selfish, that doesn't take away from all the things you do for others there might be some because they are not good for you and by embracing that good selfish, I feel this is really what will help also future generations. You want your daughters to see the bad as you are, and that can be setting boundaries. That can be. I'm going for that promotion, even though it is a big step and it terrifies me, throwing my head in the ring, taking action. See, what is the good selfish for you Ask yourself how does it serve me? That's a question women never ask and I say that because I know you're asking yourself how does it serve the company, how does it serve the client, the customer, the colleagues, my family, everybody. And I'm just saying add how does it serve me? How does it serve me? Not throwing out the other stuff, but adding it? Yes. And the second one so be more selfish, define your good selfish, that's one. And if you don't do it for you, do it for your daughters, nieces, young colleagues. And the second one is take action. Okay, learning and researching is necessary. I'm a huge fan of lifelong learning. But learning is not taking action. If you wait for a, I mean, if you're a lawyer, yes, you need the bar exam to practice. But if you are working on a certification, you're doing the work anyway. You do not have to wait for that certification to prove to ask for your promotion, ask for your raise, ask for the responsibility, the visibility. You're doing it anyway. This piece of paper, proverbial paper, does not change that. Learning is not taking action. That's our comfort zone. Great point, you will have to eventually jump off the cliff and do the scary thing. And what I said before, that superpower, that strength you have, that's your wings. That's your wings, that thing you can always rely on in yourself, the thing you trust, that's your wings.

Jamie: 31:20

I love it. Wonderful advice. Thank you so much, Micha. I've learned a ton and I have a ton of takeaways going into this next year. So how can our listeners get in touch with you if they're interested in connecting?

: 31:34

Absolutely the easiest way to connect with me is LinkedIn. You'll find my company, gobi Coaching, but you'll also find me. I'm happy to connect Mika Golbig, so you'll have to probably check the spelling, but you'll find me. I'm the only one with that name. Linkedin is the only social media I do. I have given up on all the others. You can also send an email to team at MikaGolbigcom. I have a website, gobi Coaching. So if you are interested in having a conversation, there's a calendar link there and also on LinkedIn, and I'd love to hear from you Takeaways or questions. I'd love to help.

Jamie: 32:13

Amazing. We will make sure all of your information is in our show notes as well. Thank you so much, Micha. It was excellent having you on.

: 32:20

Thank you for having me.